Friday, March 18, 2005

Racist bombing

Yesterday morning around 2.15 AM a house was firebombed in multicultural neighborhood Geuzenveld in the city of Amsterdam. Neighbors of the Pierre Cuypershof number 30 heart a laud explosion followed by smaller ones. They could not do any thing; the whole building was directly on fire. The just retired D. de Haas, a man of 65 years old, was likely burned alive and was later found by the firemen.

The police found evidence of arson and said that on the door there was a sign that looked like a swastika. Dutch language blog GeenStijl reports that just after the explosion a car with two people inside caught fire. This was very close to the burned down house. The fire in their car wounded both people. The blog says it is quite stupid to light a cigarette after an arson attack if your cloths are full of gas. But the police refuse to give any comments.

More pictures here (and here and here)

The murdered man was a native Dutch, who took care of a local playground. Neighbors say he had often trouble with Moroccan youth who made a mess on the playground.

Local newspaper Parool reports that the man was a racist: “After a burglary he was condemning all foreigners here”. But also Newspaper AD, report that the man was a racist, quoting his Turkish neighbor who said that he was known for his racist talk, he had said often that there were to many immigrants in the neighborhood (Dutch people are a minority in most areas of Amsterdam). A Moroccan woman from the neighborhood says she can understand the anger of the man: “The young [boys] hang around, act bothersome and make the atmosphere bad. But [he] should not become racist.”

On a nearby square, a group of 20 boys, nearly all from foreign decent are playing football. They had been looking that afternoon to the burned out house. One of them says he had once troubles with the man: “He said we made too much noise and that we shoot pick up our trash. Or otherwise back off to Turkey. But I am Dutch and my parents come from Morocco”.

But AT5, a local TV station, reports that his friends say that his critizism on foreigners has became fatal for him. And that althoug he was a big grubler he was absolutly not a racist. But the police says they have no idear what the motive was.


See also:
Living Safely

Sources: Geen Stijl (1), Geen Stijl (2), AD, Parool, AT5 (1), AT5 (2)

678 Comments:

Blogger Demson said...

'Dutch people are a minority in most areas of Amsterdam'

Don't you think you're going a bit over the top here?

I respect your work. You do an excellent job depicting an extreme situation in our homeland. But this is heading towards the other extreme.

9:50 AM  
Blogger the adventuress said...

Call it by its real name --ethnic cleansing of native Dutch people from their own lands.

9:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If it's true is it still "over the top"?

In my visit to Amsterdam two years ago, I certainly felt that, overall, about half the people I saw were not Dutch. Also, when in the city center, near the red light district, the only people who came up to me on the street and offered to 1) perform an act of prostitution, or 2) sell me drugs, were also obviously not Dutch (they were Arabs and Africans). So I have no trouble believing that at this point in some areas of the city native Dutch are indeed a minority.

["But [he] should not become racist."]

Yes, that's right, he should just sit idly by and watch as the pleasant ambience of his neighborhood vanishes, or later as his country is demographically destroyed. Even though the cause is of it all is right before his eyes: immigrants and immigration. After all, he wouldn't want to say anything "over the top", or risk being called a name. Of course by "become racist" the speaker essentially meant he shouldn't actually try to do anything about it. Because to do this you have to focus on the activities and indeed the presence of a certain, distinguishable group of people, which as anyone can see is "racist".

Living in Germany, I know exactly how people like this man feel: in many major cities, like Berlin, almost every part of the city is plagued by loitering, underclass muslims who are loud, rude, and at times threateningly aggressive. In Berlin, crime statistics already show that they are more than twice as likely as Germans to be in the criminal justice system. And there are most definitely certain areas of the city where Germans are a minority.

Perhaps the situation is not hopeless, but it is also difficult to be optimistic.

10:54 AM  
Anonymous Dewi Sudarsono said...

The Netherlands people have been too nice, too tollerant and too ignorant in respect to the Islam, their sickly followers and the dangers the Netherlands is facing.

As Hindu I and we know the extreme dangers posed by the followers of the sickly cult of Islam. I strongly urge the Dutch people and it's political structure to awaken before it is too late.

It is of paramount importance that the truth about this murder is made public and the danger of Islam is exposed and dealt with

4:43 PM  
Blogger Demson said...

I'm still dazzled by the term 'ethnic Dutch'. We have always been a land of succesful immigration and multiculture. Immigration is not the problem.

Besides - why can't people of Arab and African origin be Dutch? Because they look Arabic and African?

By the way, we have Turks and Morrocans here, not Arabs.

I'm all for confronting the loitering, underclass muslims who are loud, rude, and at times threateningly aggressive. But - while we're not at it, why not deal with the loitering, underclass neo-nazi's too? Plenty of them still around. I see them as much as I see the troublesome muslims. They might not threaten the dominant culture, they are still out there.

I'm all for confronting Islamofascism too. But while we're at it, why not do something about redneck Christianity? The bible is equally as dangerous.

We can focus all of our resources on battling islamofasism. But I bet that in three generations from now, another kind of fasism will have prospered because we were not paying attention.

6:14 PM  
Blogger Michael said...

Demson wrote: "I'm all for confronting Islamofascism too. But while we're at it, why not do something about redneck Christianity? The bible is equally as dangerous."

Well Demson, I think that the chances of Christian fundamentalists flying an Airbus in the Petronas towers are somewhat smaller than Islamonazi fruitcakes repeating their 9/11 act.

I'm all for freedom of speech and you can keep saying what you want. And I am free to say that your comment is ludicrous. If we were all to heed advice like yours, Europe would be definitely lost.

9:03 PM  
Blogger Demson said...

'Well Demson, I think that the chances of Christian fundamentalists flying an Airbus in the Petronas towers are somewhat smaller than Islamonazi fruitcakes repeating their 9/11 act.'

Very true. But then again - the Christian fundamentalists don't have to. They run nation states.

We should stop putting the West in the victim role.

3:17 PM  
Anonymous Drusilla said...

"Islamonazi".

Funny you should mention "nazi", considering the last time such stirrings about racial purity, which is the essence of what this debate is, resulted in the worst genocide in human history, by a european government obsessed with keeping their race "pure".
Am I calling people concerned with preserving their cultural heritage Nazis? No. We shoudl have the same right to preserve our cultural heritage as any Muslims should. We shoudl preserve it by practising our traditions and maintaining our way of life, like muslims do when they migrate to our countries, not by becoming anti-Muslim.
Cultural diffusion is onl a threat if we let ourselves abandon our cultural traditions while bemoaning other people maintaining theirs.

3:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"We should stop putting the West in the victim role."

Try telling that to these women:

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece

[Two out of three charged with rape in Norway's capital are immigrants with a non-western background according to a police study. The number of rape cases is also rising steadily.]

Are these women 'victims'?

In most Scandinavian countries, muslims make up the vast majority of "non-western" immigrants. And I don't think they are 2/3 of the population of Oslo -- not yet, anyway.

I think the statistic for Denmark is similar, if not as severe.

For its callous disregard of the very real problems caused by immigration that many residents of European countries face daily, including the loss of a friendly neighborhood ambience and any community feeling, not to mention a greater fear for their own personal safety, your statement is shocking, but not surprising.

5:47 PM  
Blogger Myrtus said...

I'm going to tell you guys a little story that I'll never forget...
One day, after work, I went to pick up my daughter when she was in kindergarten. The kids were all at the playground when I arrived. As soon as I pulled up she came running to me all upset and crying. She told me that a girl had pulled her hair and expected me to do something about it. I asked her to show me which girl. She said "THAT ONE with the piggy tails". We were standing too far for me to know who she was pointing at and there were several girls with piggy tails. I said let's go up there and you show me exactly who did it....so she did. To my surprise the girl that did it was the only one at the playground that was black and my little girl didn't even take note of that...she said "the one with the piggy tails". Now I am no racist, but the point I'm trying to make is that when someone hurts that which we love the most we want to do something about it and the way we go about it is look for the most obvious...at least from an adult's point of view, and at the same time we're ruled by emotions.
In my view, Dutchreporter is doing the same thing here with his blog and so is Wilders and his politics. I'm not saying that it's right or wrong, all I'm saying is that it's a normal human REACTION...most likely a temporary reflex. I'm hoping things will turn around eventually just like it did with my daughter and that little girl. They became best friends later on and my daughter named her "blankie" after her...she never went anywhere without "courtney".

12:21 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The atrocities list at thereligionofpeace.com is far from complete. These stories are not on the list.
If you don't have a historical knowledge of the word Dhimmi and what it means to your future you should - Demson and Myrtus obviously don't know what Dhimmi means.

2:42 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

When I see or hear of Christians beheading someone shouting ... in Jesus's name Amen...I'll start to worry about the "dangerous" bible thumpers.

drusilla, Islam is about religious purity, NOT race. Racial genocide pales in comparison with religious cleansing. Yes, even Hitler (the monster) was a wimp compared to Muslim conquests in India. Printed history just doesn't seem as real, it's just so much easier to watch WWII footage.

3:14 AM  
Anonymous Dewi Sudarsono said...

Anon wrote "...Yes, even Hitler (the monster) was a wimp compared to Muslim conquests in India..."

This is so very true, in fact the Hitler from Medina is reponsible for a murderous teaching that doesn't have its equal in recorded history.

There is no apology for the Islam, its wicked teachings and the detrimental effect it has on its followers an effect that is very much similar as the effect Hitlers maddness had on the Hitler Jugend.

The prophet, an mentally disturbed (just like Hitler) pedofile, created a mental virus causing hate, brutallity and genocidal tendensies within those who became infected by it.

My call is to outlaw the spread of Islam in Europe on the basis of the European Constitutions and the Universal Declaration On Human Rights.

10:15 AM  
Blogger Demson said...

History of the middle east:

- Crusades
- A century or two of European colonization/Imperialism
- 50 years of Western Neo-imperialism
- Goverments, often posed as western-model democraty, suppressing it's citizens this generation. Western corporations are walking over islam-dominated society as we speak.

If you trully want to beat modern Islamofacism you better begin to understand where it originates from.

Islam is not a religion of peace. Islam, like any religion, is a medium devised by humankind to serve human interests. It's use is to spread self-knowledge, violance, peace, aggression, commerce, virtually anything we invented in the past thousands of years.

Stop putting the West in the victim role. For every example that shows the West (or entire world if you prefer) is the victim of the Islam, I can think of one that counters it.

There is no apology for Islam? Then there is no apology for the West either.

What we're trully fighting here is ignorance. That's the real mental virus. And everytime you point your finger at the Islam, it's becoming increasingly widespread.

5:52 PM  
Blogger Myrtus said...

"If you trully want to beat modern Islamofacism you better begin to understand where it originates from."

Demson, perhaps a dumb question, but where DOES it originate according to you?

12:50 AM  
Blogger Demson said...

It's not easily explained as a comment.

The 'leading' islamofascists are just plain nutcases. Take Osama; he's just using the Islam as a tool for power.

Most of the followers of islamofascism either lack perspective and/or are extremely frustrated.

Lack of perspective happens when people fail to communicate. IE: the segmented muslim communities in the Netherlands. When we invited muslims here as guest labourers, they were not included in the political process of our nation.

About the frustration; I suggest you read accounts of Palastinians.

Islamofacism is a complicated puzzle. Islam is not neccesarily a cause by itself, but a cover people that's easily refered to. 'Allah!' shouts allot better then 'I don't know any better!' or 'Willful ignorance!' or even 'Arrogation!'.

I contempt terrorism. I contempt facism. I contempt forced religion. But pointing a finger at the Islam can really piss me off, and I'm not even muslim.

2:53 PM  
Blogger Myrtus said...

"I contempt terrorism. I contempt facism. I contempt forced religion. But pointing a finger at the Islam can really piss me off, and I'm not even muslim."

As a Muslim, I can really get pissed off too when all the blame is laid on the west.

To me it sounds like you're saying "stop putting the west in a victim role", but in a way you're offering excuses for Islam instead, even though you're not taking a clear stance on either side. That's why I asked you to explain the root of the problem according to you in your own words.
Let me ask you this.
Many Arab/Muslim countries have been colonized by the west, right? Let's take for example an old Dutch colony: Indonesia (the lagest Muslim country in the world). Have the Muslims ever unified themselves to fight on behalf of Indonesia or any other Arab/Muslim country like they've done in the case of the Palestinians?
Or does this ultimately all boil down to Muslims against jews? Or could it be that America has grown so powerful around the globe that the Muslims fear they can no longer continue to rule by means of keeping their populations ignorant? So they give them the ultimate weapon to fight back:Islamofascism...and the product knowledge on how the use it against the west, to conquer and multiply and ultimately rule the world. All the while using Palestinins as a crutch.

6:23 PM  
Blogger Demson said...

This is getting very interesting indeed :D I'm glad I posted a comment. I usually don't do that.

You're arguements are very vallid, Myrtus.

I'm not trying to excuse the Islam, nor the West. I'm not trying to blaim the Islam or the West neither. However, we should realise the background of those who oppose us if we trully want to tackle the conflict.

My point is that the Islamist are not the problem.

I know plenty of moderate muslims, all very pleasant and warm people. Do I think that because they are islamist? No, it's because of who they are.

The islam is used as medium. You describe well how a few 'masterminds' try to use it. Their purpose is pretty obvious too. And it's not very desired. But I don't believe the avarage Palistinian has any idea of what's really going on.

I'm all for confronting the Islamofascist. But not on the grounds that Islam is inheritely evil and should be destroyed. If that's true - the West should be destroyed on the same grounds.

8:22 PM  
Blogger Myrtus said...

This is getting very interesting indeed :D I'm glad I posted a comment. I usually don't do that.

I'm glad you did too. You really should consider posting more.
It's all about communication, right? (:
We always think we know the answers, but all we really do is exchange our opinions and maybe learn a thing or two from each other in the process.

Hey, where is Dutchreporter btw?

12:27 AM  
Blogger ambisinistral said...

Demson,

I'm not sdure if you are a native english speaker or not, but the terms Islamist and moslem are not interchangable. Islamist is a generic term for Wahabists, Salafists, and the like. It is the same as calling somebody an Islamofascist.

2:58 AM  
Blogger the adventuress said...

Demson said:

"History of the middle east:

- Crusades
- A century or two of European colonization/Imperialism
- 50 years of Western Neo-imperialism
- Goverments, often posed as western-model democraty, suppressing it's citizens this generation. Western corporations are walking over islam-dominated society as we speak."

Excuse me? what about the colonization of Christendom by Muslims for 350 years before the Crusades?

Does Christendom get a "free pass" for any old atrocity because the Muslims took Constantinople, Anatolia, Syria, Antioch etc. from us?

Does Hindustan get a "free pass" for any old atrocity because the Muslims colonized, invaded and raped India for 1000 years before the British got there?

Other cultures were colonized by Europe (Southeast Asia for example)in the 19th Century; none are as poor, violent and miserable today as Islamia.

You just sound like the same old one-sided PeeCee nonsense that turns more and more Western people off every single day. I'm tired of hearing about it.

There was a reason for the Crusades -- it was a counter-jihad in response to 350 years of constant attacks on the lands and sacred places of Christendom by Islamic holy warriors. Learn some history please!

6:52 PM  
Blogger Demson said...

To ambisinistral:

English is not my native language. In my language, our word for 'islamist' is exactly the same as muslim. It has little to do with islamofasicm. Perhaps the word Islamite is more appropiate for what I mean?

To Irene Adler:

Pot, meet kettle.

I excuse you. My point was not to prove a right or wrong, like your point seems to be.

There was a reason to the Crusades. There was a reason to the surge of Islam. I learned history.

I am not about handing out free passes. My point is the Western culture is just as good or bad as the Islamic culture.

9/11? What do you think the invasion of Iraq looks like for the avarage Middle-Eastern?

You say god, they say Allah. Poteto Potato.



These comments have gone way off-topic, heh.

5:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What happened in Madrid after de 11-M bombings?

See here:
mms://a693.v133062.c13306.e.vm.akamaistream.net/7/693/13306/2005033001/downloads.genetsis.com/faes/masacre/tras_la_masacre_english_300.wmv

1:31 AM  
Blogger the adventuress said...

My point is the Western culture is just as good or bad as the Islamic culture.

If that was your point then you are indeed a naive fool, as I suspected from your first post.

8:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Demson sounds like your typical "blame the west" liberal. Somehow Islamofacism is our fault.

You're just an apologist for Islamic facists.

First you compare Islamic facists to Christian fundimentalists which is an absurd comparison. Islamofacists kill people, while the worst Christian fundimentalists do is say stuff you don't like to hear. When Pat Robertson starts running around with an AK-47 then I'll worry about Christian fundimentalists.

Second you show your extremly one-sided anti-western view of history. Trying to suggest that the conflict between Muslims and Christians started with the crusades. You ignored the Muslim invasion of Spain which happened long before the Crusades. You also ignored that one of the main reasons for the Crusades was to stop the Muslim turks from invading Constantinople.

Finally you compare the West with the Mid-east and say that they are equal. How can you say that the democratic west, which respects women's rights and the rights of minorities, is moralally equal to the women beating, jew hating Middle east?

Even if you were right and the West and the Middle-east were somehow equal. You are a Westerner and Islamofacists want to kill Westerners. Wouldn't it be wise to side with the west on this issue?

7:22 AM  
Blogger Demson said...

'You're just an apologist for Islamic facists.'

That is where I stopped reading. You obviousily don't intend to listen what I have to say. You merely wish to hear an acknowledgement of what you think you know already.


Irene Addler:

'If that was your point then you are indeed a naive fool, as I suspected from your first post.'


Please re-read my first post and tell my why I am a naive fool. I'll copy it for your convinience:

''Dutch people are a minority in most areas of Amsterdam'

Don't you think you're going a bit over the top here?

I respect your work. You do an excellent job depicting an extreme situation in our homeland. But this is heading towards the other extreme.'

10:41 AM  
Blogger Michael said...

Dutch Report, people are checking in and find nothing new. What's wrong? Burnout? Give us a sign please.


Michael/Belgium

10:21 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Norway calling. Missing updates too.

5:58 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

From Spain too.

1:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ditto Australia

7:53 AM  
Blogger Myrtus said...

Ditto for Nueva York here. (:

DR, wat is er aan de hand joh?

2:15 PM  
Blogger Demson said...

There's been plenty of turmoil to report. A terror suspect (of the Hoffstadt group) was released duo to invalid evidence gathering. Additionaly, a Dutch airliner heading for US airspace was send back by the US because of two Saudi's on board. Both Saudi's had visited exactly the same aviation school the 9/11 terrorists went to... Upon return in the Netherlands, the AIVD (the Dutch security agency) let the two go.

At the other side of the spectrum... A group of bored kids - refered to as 'Lonsdalers' (they're wannabe neonazi's) - had some time to kill and tried to arson a local mosque. This resulted in a brawl with the local islamites ( ;) ). It's big news, and our minister for integration affairs has been mediating between the Lonsdalers and islamites.

Neo-nazism has been a growing phenomenom amongst bored teenagers for a decade or so, and the islam has given them a target. The above event is not big news by itself, but it tells allot about what has been going on around here.

The extreme melodramatic are even talking about a civil war in 30 years from now though I personally think it's a bunch of bull. Besides the odd nutcase (both in the form of neonazi's and islamofascists), we really don't have such a big problem here IMO. As soon as the immigrated islamites are involved with our political process, things will be allot better. They have been part of our economy for 2-3 decades, it should be fine.

Unless, of course, some foreigner decides to blow up a subway. The Dutch people would overreact and invade belgium, as the Belgium king has ties to the Saudi royalty. The terrorist was the brother-in-law of the newphew of the 27th wife of the 11th crown prince of Saudi-Arabia. Secretly, the political elite of the Netherlands just used it as an excuse to acquire the Belgium chocolate factories.

Sorry for the sarcastic rant. In all sincerity, I hope Dutchblogger will return. Although I think there are more pressing issues, the cultural clash between the West and the Islam does deserve our attention.

9:40 PM  
Blogger ArchAngel said...

The ArchAngel lands in Holland: Dewi Sudarsano read your postings, please allow me to help.

Any religion that requires a Religion Police force, well you all can think about that for yourself.

Some excerpts from the good ol' Koran, That Religion of Peace..


Allah's apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah" (Hadith 4:52:196)

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve (8:55)

When the sacred months have passed away, THEN SLAY THE IDOLATERS WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE THEM CAPTIVES AND BESIEGE THEM AND LIE IN WAIT FOR THEM IN EVERY AMBUSH, then if they repent and keep up prayer [become believers] and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them (9:5)

And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He GAVE YOU MASTERY OVER THEM (8:71)

FIGHT THEM: ALLAH WILL PUNISH THEM BY YOUR HANDS AND BRING THEM TO DISGRACE, AND ASSIST YOU AGAINST THEM. (9:14)

FIGHT THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN ALLAH, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, NOR FOLLOW THE RELIGION OF TRUTH, OUT OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE BOOK [Christians and Jews], until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and THEY ARE IN A STATE OF SUBJECTION. (9:29)

The punishment of those who pit themselves against Allah and His Messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, except those who repent before you have them in your power (5:33-34)

Believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one god: far be it from his glory that He should have a son. (4:171)


What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him. THEY DESIRE THAT YOU SHOULD DISBELIEVE AS THEY HAVE DISBELIEVED, SO THAT YOU MIGHT BE ALL ALIKE; THEREFORE TAKE NOT FROM AMONG THEM FRIENDS UNTIL THEY FLY THEIR HOMES IN ALLAH'S WAY; BUT IF THEY TURN BACK, THEN SEIZE THEM AND KILL THEM WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE NOT FROM AMONG THEM A FRIEND OR A HELPER. (4:89)

[yes the Jews and Muslims are both descendents of Abraham, but here is the attitude towards descendants of Abraham through Isaac (the Jews]: "If they find you, they will be your enemies, and will stretch forth towards you their hands and their tongues with evil, and they ardently desire that you may disbelieve. Your relationship would not profit you, nor your children, on the day of resurrection; He will decide between you; and Allah sees what you do. Indeed, there is for you a good example in Abraham and those with him when they said to their people: Surely we are clear of you and of what you serve besides Allah; WE DECLARE OURSELVES TO BE CLEAR OF YOU, AND ENMITY AND HATRED HAVE APPEARED BETWEEN US AND YOU FOREVER UNTIL YOU BELIEVE IN ALLAH ALONE (60:2-4

7:59 AM  
Blogger ArchAngel said...

Demon, Hey buddy how you doing. It seems that you reign supreme here on the blog. After reading your posts, I see that you have spent your whole 17 years on the planet drinking the kool-aid...


Besides - why can't people of Arab and African origin be Dutch?

Answer: Maybe because the were not born Dutch. They were born Arab. They were born African, which would make them Arab and African.

I read your profile, you say your English teacher has loosen your leash so you do your English paper and you get to chose the subject. Got a suggestion for you :

Arabs and Islam have been on this planet for a couple of thousands of years. Here is your research project: Name 5 products that have been created, designed, manufactured, and distributed by Arabs for the good of all people on the planet. I am sure everyone would love to see the results of your research, who knows, you might even get a good grade out of it.

Up for the challenge?

8:22 AM  
Blogger ArchAngel said...

Demson, Sorry I misspelled your name in the post above.

8:24 AM  
Blogger Demson said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

5:17 PM  
Blogger Demson said...

That Islam.... Scary book, isn't it?

Are you aware that the old testament is full of vicious things God did to heithers? Noah's arc and the Seven Plagues just to name two.

The Koran is no difference from the Old Testament. It was oriented on military conquest (as opposed to the political conquest of the Bible), but they both served the same purpose.

'Demon, Hey buddy how you doing. It seems that you reign supreme here on the blog. After reading your posts, I see that you have spent your whole 17 years on the planet drinking the kool-aid...'

Personal attacks? You make such an effort making quotations and you follow it up with personal attacks? Besides, I drink milk, not kool-aid (whatever that is). My daddy says it'll make me grow big and strong, you see.

'Besides - why can't people of Arab and African origin be Dutch?

Answer: Maybe because the were not born Dutch. They were born Arab. They were born African, which would make them Arab and African.'

We invited them here, gave them Dutch passports, and asked them to participate in our economy (which they have done succesfully). Secondly, the muslims of today are increasingly second-generation and thus born on Dutch soil.

'Arabs and Islam have been on this planet for a couple of thousands of years. Here is your research project: Name 5 products that have been created, designed, manufactured, and distributed by Arabs for the good of all people on the planet.'

Arabs? Aren't they faithful allies of the Western crusade for democracy ?

The progression of Muslim society during the dark ages outshines Christian europe on all fields. Together with the Hellenistic legacy, their findings in the area's of modern medicine, mathematics, architecture and intellectual thought still for the base for science to date. Example; they figured out the circulation system when Christian Europeans were still messing around with the Four Elements.

In terms of cultural legacy: windmills are a Persian invention, no Dutch. Tullips were a sixteenth-century import from turkey, and are not native Dutch either.

I'm becoming a bit tired of having to defend myself. If it serves the purpose of learning I don't mind an arguement, but this is ridiculous.

I can agree that the Islam poses dangers to our mutual future. However, it should not be underrated as a culture nor overrated as a threat to Western-styled sociocraty. It's as high on my list as Christianity and Judaism.

5:20 PM  
Anonymous Dane said...

Are you aware that the old testament is full of vicious things God did to heithers? Noah's arc and the Seven Plagues just to name two.

Uh, perhaps you don't notice the difference in what God did (if you believe it happened that is) versus what muslims are SUPPOSED to be carrying on now in order to follow the words of their god.

I'm not worried about a flood. I'm worried about psychotic Islamofascists killing me becauses they're commanded to in the Koran.

Comparing TODAY'S Christians/Jews/Hindus fundamentalists (since this is 2005 after all and not the time of the Crusades) to todays muslim jihadis is so intellectually dishonest that it's laughable.

Someone help me because I'm confused. Tolerance doesn't equal acceptance. Now, why aren't we hearing about those bloodthirsty Chinese immigrants? Makes me wonder what the difference is between them and those coming from north Africa. *scratches head*

Things that make you go hmmmm.....

10:53 PM  
Anonymous Dane said...

demson said: The progression of Muslim society during the dark ages outshines Christian europe on all fields. Together with the Hellenistic legacy, their findings in the area's of modern medicine, mathematics, architecture and intellectual thought still for the base for science to date. Example; they figured out the circulation system when Christian Europeans were still messing around with the Four Elements.

In terms of cultural legacy: windmills are a Persian invention, no Dutch. Tullips were a sixteenth-century import from turkey, and are not native Dutch either.
=============================
Isn't it funny that in order to talk about anything remotely important from the Middle East at all, one has to reach waaaaaayyyyy back in history to even times before Christ?

Demson: While you are certainly not being asked to apologize/defend the indefensible, if you are going to respond to a question posed, at least ANSWER it and not talk in vague circles.

The question was to name 5 things created by Arabs for all mankind.

Did you realize that:

A)Turks are not Arabs but Arabs are the third largest ethnic group in Turkey. The only thing Turks and Arabs have in common is Islam, not ethnicity.
B)Tulips grew naturally in the Med region and were brought by a Protestant, Carolus Clusius to Holland. In 1593 started his garden and is now credited for turning Holland into the tulip capital of the world.
----------------------------
Re: Windmills - Persians are also NOT Arabs. While the origin of windmills comes from Persia, the design was considered inefficient. Still, it moved across China to the west and was improved upon. In fact, the best improvment is the fantail mechanism in 1745 by Edmund Leigh.

So, lets narrow down the challenge to something in more recent history shall we? I'll even be generous in my timeline:

"Name 5 products that have been created, designed, manufactured, and distributed by Arabs for the good of all people on the planet since the SEVENTEENTH century"

We'll be waiting.

*crickets chirping*

One has to ask themselves, why would any faith forbid departure or suffer penalty of death due to apostasy? [and before anyone says that corporal punishment is not found in the Koran, it is a widely held belief. Sounds more like a cult to me.....

11:12 AM  
Blogger Demson said...

'Uh, perhaps you don't notice the difference in what God did (if you believe it happened that is) versus what muslims are SUPPOSED to be carrying on now in order to follow the words of their god.'

I notice the difference, but I hold them in equal prospect.

Those muslims I see daily as subway security... They don't seem to be very occupied with carrying out that mission.

* I'm worried about psychotic Islamofascists killing me*

A vallid concern, in my opinion. To be honest, I worry about that too. I travel regurely in a Madrid-style subway. I always keep my eyes open when I travel to school in the bussy hours.

*Comparing TODAY'S Christians/Jews/Hindus fundamentalists (since this is 2005 after all and not the time of the Crusades) to todays muslim jihadis is so intellectually dishonest that it's laughable.*

I disagree for earlier mentioned reasons.

*Now, why aren't we hearing about those bloodthirsty Chinese immigrants? Makes me wonder what the difference is between them and those coming from north Africa. *scratches head*

Asian maffia is infamous.

On an interesting side note, there was a riot here in the Netherlands this evening. A demonstration of a Indonesian ethnic group that immigrated here 50 years ago got out of control. The train hijackers who introduced terrorism to Holland in 1975 share the same ethnic background ('molukkers').

*Isn't it funny that in order to talk about anything remotely important from the Middle East at all, one has to reach waaaaaayyyyy back in history to even times before Christ?*

Not to me. History has defined our present. It is not funny at all to learn from the past. It is of relevance if you wish to better understand your fellow human beings.

*Demson: While you are certainly not being asked to apologize/defend the indefensible, if you are going to respond to a question posed, at least ANSWER it and not talk in vague circles.*

This means you intend to attack me, which was also not asked for.

I don't feel attacked however. I am not defending the Islam as a religion. As a culture, it has a vallid place in history. I believe it has as little future as Christianity or Judaism or any other religion. Having faith in the define and unexplainable is just downright silly when you wish for a better future. Such behaviour belongs in a casino, not social issues.

I admit my mistake. I misread the question. However, it is the Islam and muslims who we questioned initially, not Arabs. However, the elaborate on this subject:

Arabs did indeed leave us an intellectual legacy. What this was exactly you can look up yourself. If you wish to condem the Arabs, it might be wise to learn about their history first. That you did not read it does not mean it did not happen.

My point still stands though: the Islam left an legacy we still enjoy today.

I gave three vallid examples. The circulation system, windmills from Muslim Persia and tullips from Turkey (that's where we got them from, not 'the med region').

I refuse to do research for you. You should do it yourself. In fact, I recommend it.

As it seems we are allowed to set criteria for each other's arguements: for the next question: name five muslims (not islamofascists) you know personally who harmed you because of the Islam, name the highest tower in the world and also guess the colour of my underwear.

I don't mind a good arguement, but if the tone of the latest few replies continues I don't think I'll respond anymore. My case stands. And yes, I do think Islamofascists deserve to die.

I'm becoming a bit tired of having to reply. I merely wished to point out that, as far as I'm aware, Amsterdam is still located in the Netherlands and is thus still run and occupied by Dutch people. Dutch people are not a minority in most areas of Amsterdam. There are a few ghetto's, but that issue is being tackled as we speak. God bless and thank Allah for the 'commie' mayor Cohen and muslim city councellor Aboutaleb and all those other people for doing a good job.

11:13 PM  
Anonymous dane said...

demson said: "I notice the difference, but I hold them in equal prospect. "

You can't if you wish to be taken seriously. One is a fable chosen to be believed or not. The other is fact and today's reality.

demson said: "Those muslims I see daily as subway security... They don't seem to be very occupied with carrying out that mission."

Yeah, and those 19 clean shaven, casually business dresssed men who boarded 4 planes in the USA on bright, sunny day didn't exactly look the part of bearded, sword wielding, murdering jihadis either. Gee, look what they managed to do...

demson said: "Asian maffia is infamous."

LOL. Why didn't you toss in Russian and the Italian mafia too? You know they and the Chinese are so much like the jihadis with their ultimate goal of the destruction of the west.

demson said: "Not to me. History has defined our present. It is not funny at all to learn from the past. It is of relevance if you wish to better understand your fellow human beings."

I haven't forgotten history at all. In fact, there's a very important saying of "Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it." That's in relevance to the Jews, but you can take that into account for all of history.

demson said: "This means you intend to attack me, which was also not asked for."

No, you were asked to answer the question instead of talking around it since you've chosen to play devil's advocate in this forum. However, you did explain you misread the question asked since the context earlier was in regards to muslims. See, look how easy that was to explain!

demson said: "Arabs did indeed leave us an intellectual legacy. What this was exactly you can look up yourself. If you wish to condem the Arabs, it might be wise to learn about their history first. That you did not read it does not mean it did not happen."

Since no where in my 2 postings did I dismiss the "intellectual legacy" of the Arabs but stated one had to reach far back into history to get anything important, you are creating what is termed as a "straw man" argument. That's usually done by liberals and/or apologists for the indefensible.

demson said: "I gave three vallid examples. The circulation system, windmills from Muslim Persia and tullips from Turkey (that's where we got them from, not 'the med region').

I refuse to do research for you. You should do it yourself. In fact, I recommend it."

LOL. Didn't I name names and dates? However, I will correct myself from the term Med and change to Central Asia. Here's my sources which are even non-political / non-neocon sites!:

source: http://www.dirtgardener.com/TipSheets/Bulbs/TulipHistory.html

"For the origins of the tulip, we look to central Asia. This is site of their prime genetic center in the Tien-Shan and the Pamir Alai Mountain Ranges near modern day Islamabad, close to the border of Russia and China. From these areas, tulips spread to other regions including China and Mongolia to the east and to other regions to the west and northwest. A secondary genetic center developed in Azerbaijan and Armenia (Transcaucasia)."

and a second source for good measure:

http://ks.essortment.com/growingtulips_rmnt.htm

The tulip is actually a native of central Asia! The tulip is a native of the Tien-Shan and Pamir-alai Mountain Ranges near Islamabad. Tulips spread to China and Mongolia from this point, and from there entered the far reaches of Europe. The Turkish Empire is greatly renowned for having the tulips that now decorate the Netherlands, and the Turks were known as cultivators of this flower through Persia and Asia from as early as 1,000 A.D.

demson said: "As it seems we are allowed to set criteria for each other's arguements: for the next question: name five muslims (not islamofascists) you know personally who harmed you because of the Islam, name the highest tower in the world and also guess the colour of my underwear."

I can name the entire muslim population of Denmark which has caused the knee-jerk lawmakers here to create ridiculous immigraton laws for their OWN citizens (i.e. WHITE). These new laws have to be equal towards all non-EU member immigrants even if spouses of Danish citizens. This affected my entrance to this country and ability my ability to gain employment and receive health benefits. Don't believe me, here's an article explaining why things are the way they are:

"Something Rotten in Denmark?"
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/450

Number 2: Let's see here...The highest tower is the world is the KTHI-TV Tower in the State of North Dakota USA which stands at 629 meters. Or, did you mean FREE STANDING tower which is, of course, CN Tower in Canada and stands at 553.3 meters? Or did you mean tallest structure? Oh dear...

As far as the color of your underwear, I'd say brown. LOL

demson said: "I don't mind a good arguement, but if the tone of the latest few replies continues I don't think I'll respond anymore."

Well, as the song says: "So long, farewell, Auf Wiedersehen, goodnight! Here's a little blog site that may interest you about the direction of Europe:

http://www.eurabiantimes.com/\

While I don't advocate hysteria, I do want to see lawmakers and citizens stand up for their NATIONAL rights before any one group's religious rights. Europe has now prided itself into becoming secular in nature. Therefore, stop caving into the religious fanatics who rule by intimidation (you Brits have a serious problem too) and no intention of living in peace with westerners or western culture or accepting the tolerance in Holland.

When one group of people has no intention to being tolerant to your way of life, what do you do?
Stop making excuses.

Here is a very interesting article about what just happened in England.

"The Not-So-Great Divorce -
Multiculturalism and liberalism look toward splitting up."

http://nationalreview.com/jos/osullivan200504250801.asp

Enjoy! I'm glad we're leaving Europe....

12:48 PM  
Anonymous dane said...

Oh, and demson, come check out the ghastly American conservative site at http://www.rightnation.us/index.php

Perhaps you'll start to see things a little differently. There's lots of views coming in from around the world debating all sorts of topics. Even the Dutch Reporter has come around every so often too!

1:01 PM  
Anonymous dane said...

Let me clarify, "ghastly" is in regards to those who put their own country's national interest first. That may be a difficult thing for all the EU lovers to comprehend. LOL.

Oh, and come back Dutch Reporter!

1:03 PM  
Blogger Demson said...

I think I'll stop commenting. The only vallid arguement against my case which I've read came down to what is in essence racism, and I'm unwilling to argue with racists. Secondly, we're becoming too focussed on how the debate is done in order to prove each others wrong, instead of being concerned with the actual message. That's not my prefered style.

As a final note; Dane - I'm glad you're leaving Europe too.

1:30 PM  
Anonymous dane said...

Uh oh! Someone is challenging the Arab accomplishments. Was it really them or perhaps the Greeks, Indians or Persians?

The plot thickens. Perhaps the Arabs didn't accomplish as much as they're taking credit for in history.....
============================
source: http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/20573

"The author [Jules Lemaitre] declared with fine assurance that Arab literature was the richest and most brilliant of all known literatures, and that the Arab civilization was highest and most splendid.

"Now these writings were not the original production of Arab genius, but translations of Greek works from the Schools of Alexandria and Damascus, first drawn up in Syriac and then in Arabic at the request of the Abbasid Caliphate, by Syrian scribes who had gone over to Islam.

"The thought of Greek authors was drowned in the religious formulae imposed by Islamic dogma; the name of the author translated was not mentioned so that European scholars could have no suspicion that the work before them was a translation and imitation, or an adaptation; and so they attributed to the Arabs what really belonged to the Greeks…

"It is well to remember that at that epoch the greater part of the works of antiquity were unknown in Europe. The Arabs thus passed for inventors and initiators, feigning reality that they were nothing but copyists. It was not until later, at the time of the Renaissance, when the manuscripts of the original authors were discovered, that the error was detected….."

From History of the Arabs, Philip Hitti, p. 174

"By the conquest of the Fertile Crescent and the lands of Persia and Egypt, the Arabians came into possession of not only geographical areas but of the earliest seats of civilization in the whole world. Thus the sons of the desert fell heirs to these hoary cultures with their long traditions going back to Greco-Roman, Iranian, Pharaohnic and Assyrio-Babylonian times. In art and architecture, in philosophy and medicine, in science and literature, in government, the original Arabians had nothing to teach and everything to learn…..with an ever-sharp sense of curiosity and with latent potentialities ……these Muslim Arabians in collaboration with and by the help of their subject peoples began now to assimilate, adopt and reproduce their intellectual and aesthetic heritage."

7:02 PM  
Anonymous dane said...

demson said: "As a final note; Dane - I'm glad you're leaving Europe too."

Awwww. That hurt demson. *snif*

Remember boys and girls, denial ain't just a river in Egypt!

7:50 PM  
Anonymous dane said...

demson said: "As a final note; Dane - I'm glad you're leaving Europe too."

Awwww. That hurt demson. *snif*

Remember boys and girls, denial ain't just a river in Egypt!

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Islamics use dirty and extreme methods. They cannot be reasoned with. Unless you hurt them they will not stop.

Take the gloves off. This means, Lethal force, repatriation, deportation, interment and punishing their friends and family.

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